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Conversation Analysis – E. Stokoe, L’boro, S. Albert, Tufts – Voice Tech Podcast ep.017

Elizabeth Stokoe Loughborough

Episode description

Elizabeth Stokoe is Professor of Social Interaction at Loughborough Uni in the UK, and Saul Albert is a Postdoctoral Research Associate at Tufts University in Massachusetts, United States. Their latest research shows us how to influence the outcomes of conversational interactions, and we discuss the implications of this for voice technology.

We cover what conversation analysis is, with examples from different conversation settings such as first dates, crisis negotiation, and sales calls. Then we discuss the use of nudging to encourage action, and the ethical implcations of persuasive voice interfaces. We also arrive at a shocking discovery that today’s conversational interfaces are, in fact, not conversational at all!

This is a thought provoking episode that explores the fundamental mechanisms of conversation that we as technologists are trying to emulate. it’s especially useful for anyone involved in designing or promoting conversational interfaces, and will make you think about conversation in a whole new way. Subscribe to the podcast and listen now!

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Episode transcript

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welcome to the voice Tech podcast. Robinson in conversation with the world’s leading voice technology expert discover the latest product tools and technique and learn to build the voice up to the Future that’s the what happens in conversation we’re not going to pray conversational things until we understand the conversation was

hello and welcome back today’s episode is entitled conversation analysis and what you’ll hear my conversation with two experts in the field Elizabeth Stokoe professor of social interaction at Loughborough University in the UK and Saul Albert postdoctoral research associate at Tufts University in Massachusetts United States been a conversation we talk about what conversation analysis is what it means to be conversational we discuss some of the different conversation settings that Elizabeth insole McDonald in my research such as First Dates crisis negotiation on sales calls and have some of the findings I can be used as tactics the influence the outcomes of these are these contractions we discuss the implications of that findings @voicetechcarl stuff including nudging the ethical implications of that is Switzer voice into pieces and then we even uncover The Voice industry’s most closely guarded secret. Today’s conversation into faces aren’t fighting not conversational ASL as soon as he

see this is a thought-provoking episode that explores the fundamental mechanisms of conversation that we use technology to trying to emulate especially useful for anyone involved in designing or promoting conversation and spaces and will make you think about conversation in a whole new way

Elizabeth has just released a book called Tok the science of conversation it’s out now and encourage everyone to check it out as you wrote the book specifically to people outside the academic world I had to introduce regular folks like you and me at the basic concepts in the field on the many important insights that is generated and to illustrate some of the concepts book is packed with fun examples of all the different kinds of conversation very accessible introduction to the topic of the best books on conversation analysis which include Concepts like 10 taking and how the choice of words can dramatically affect the action taken by the use up how you’ll find that at voicetechpodcast.com books on that page that has the link to Elizabeth book I choke the science of conversation as well as many other recommended books on conversation analysis tonight’s voicetechpodcast.com books

do you like the show please consider leaving a review on iTunes just got a voice chat podcast. Comes to iTunes it literally takes 30 seconds and it really helped me out and if you’d like to become a patron and support the show I can go to voicetechpodcast.com denied that you can donate for as little as $1 a month to help keep the show ad free other resources that you can enjoy include I read it Community / / boys Tech

all right so I’m here with the Elizabeth Stokoe professor of social interaction at Loughborough University in the UK and Saul Albert postdoctoral research associate at Tufts University in Massachusetts of the United States today’s topic is conversation analysis which is incredibly president to listen to faces and the voice best Revolution welcome to the show Elizabethton soul

and I’m alright so Elizabeth the start with you I’m could you just briefly introduce yourself tell us how you got interested in the field of conversation analysis and and what research topics Erie County

yes I’m just like how I’m in the school of social sciences at the Free University my background is actually in Psychology which I guess might make people think someone who studies conversation one thing that we might talk about nature is how rally psychologist actually stood a real conversation or not because I was trained in it while so I did my undergraduate degree but because I can’t do it like that when I used it to address the problems that encountered in my research

interesting okay and so how about you in the office I was lucky enough to be trained in the Queen Mary University of London a meteor not technology talk to training center and I finished a lot while 26 and 2016 and was exposed to conversation analysis via the cognitive science and human computer interaction route cuz I was doing my PhD in computer science department so engine computer interaction Research into interested in this stuff how to get my hands on it and I was lucky enough to meet people at least the talk to finding networks that exist in the UK for a PhD students looking conversation analysis and that’s how go into it so conversation

I’m meeting you two guys having done a little research into a I can see it absolutely relevant to everything to do with voice and spaces so you can we stop and talk to do list to just Define like what is conversation analysis synonym and what it what does it mean to be conversational play so domestic settings or in any organization and then we transcribe and analyzed the recordings using the technical system that allows is to have a really fine grind forensic analysis of a distinct landscape so you start at beginning of an encounter with your recipient or the way you complete various projects so you can anticipate

or you can construct my so conversation analysis basically interested in the conversation Racetrack and how different designs commits a different conversation

interesting has is it so you can definitely imagine there are two people progressing along and an interaction that side by side and in each one is advancing positive spin always try to identify along and it takes him awhile to get them together moving

I said he means it won’t stop by side is smooth sailing and then when there’s an upset than the other one of them struggling to start when someone doesn’t even want to be in the conversation okay so the point I guess that I found most useful when I was just learning about it was the case about the conversation and not the people so recently to help teach my students how to do this kind of analysis microwave explaining what is the conversation analysis focuses on on the EMC a hashtag on Twitter. Conversation analysis

and a pool at consent who is an old hand at this game said it’s the study of actions no actors so it’s always looking at the action that’s being implemented and the turns out the speakers seems to be the biggest distinction between suddenly conversation analysis and other approaches to psychology interested in people interested in tons and actions does conversational says include things like paralinguistics letter the child the tonality and in which the words of said regardless of the emotional state of my tablet to them

at least you don’t say something about that what much more on that kind of work

yes I mean one of those things that people sometimes make the mistake when they’re coming to understand conversation analysis and I’m the window interested in things like BarkBox all of those things like intonation and prosodic features gestures are they open prize the result is that we used to get things done I’m going to say is I P differences between conversation analysis of another option not the actor trajectory is to think about how people typically understand why people to act the way they do their very como estas and a lot of people believe that says that you stop

of making a request if you believe in gender difference is installed by then you might try to show and find that women ask for things in a more polite way before building request in settings of various times what you find is that that or into things like how entitled all day to ask the thing that they’re asking how relevant is it to the person who is maybe going to grant their request how how how how much should they be fulfilling the request that you are making and that a kind of things that generate different designs no individual speakers because they’re amount of a woman but why study conversation what important things that really fascinates me as a psychologist this house by clergy have studied conversation so we tend to in Psychology when we want to understand anything

Spider-Man clean produce Behavior or see me like Behavior or reports on about how much words and language in terms of shampoo people around in Psychology that the struggle in the head of a monster and because we’ve done loads and loads of research on Thursday again week we simply don’t know how systemic to a kids book the things that people say we started to beat you all and everyone and you can see in real talk but you can also see an underlying system of interaction that is

that’s a more Universal than one individual in idiosyncratic

I said is that why it’s more important to study what’s being said than the pet than the people saying it because it more easily leads to into these discoveries of what’s that was coming am I still coming station

yeah absolutely I mean I guess again interns make a real difference to the trajectory of an outcome and people don’t know what they’re doing but they might be really good at doing to create is to get them to understand the things that they doing but effective and we have to do it all the time and Analysis because people would just know so well though people might be really good at being a doctor or a police officer or officers negotiate that they can’t tell you later what it was doing that work because if I could then we’ll look back and I dance and training and practice would be consistently good all the time that I can’t be the case for the top of a conversation on the list

remind me is well of advice that you could read Inn in Paso development books will tell you to do all these things that’s a lot of things that you would read and think well that’s absolutely true and I should definitely do that sell any conversation with someone but In the Heat of the Moment you would never remember you never remember to do it and I will come to light side when does an important places of Satan has a program where you go all the Time in the World to implement these things a lot more of that research could be you have brought to buy

best thing is to communicate to people believe that communication is 93% body language 50 years and Quebec. City back in the day has collaborated with the receipt just in time to stop people from his vicious is made with witches things like how would you have a conversation in the dog VA you mentioned list that has been fifty years of study into conversation analysis walking some of that the big discoveries are not time and then and

major contributions

welcome station and invented in the US since Oceanside sociology Jefferson and I guess the major Milestone is the paper that they published in 1974 about 2 and taking the paper was groundbreaking ceremony because what they showed was the systematic nature of the way people hate the way people are able to anticipate and project the end of one speaker stands that I can take it to the way in which people recognized unfolding actions should I can make it fixed response to the action is really interesting one illustrate conversation analysis because it.

well that’s a spoof slide Inn fly by and see what’s going on in those kinds of ways that I can sometimes take turns warm after another you can imagine how that might be the same as California not very very original papers in the field is not be the most like the paper in the field one thing that people don’t know about conversation analysis is is something that scientists might want to know is what is so when you look at things like nature publication that you’ve got a new book coming out could you could you tell us a bit about that and what’s in it and inhibits full

yes it’s tool tote the science of conversation and it basically trying to explain history of conversation analysis of my auntie is Animal Jam safe experts I’m just trying to show people how you can have really big payoffs if you understand conversation scientifically I’m so I basically talk about showing how systematic conversation is Raging through such things as varied as first aid and medical communication thinking about you is wrong in the way I want to get people to understand

so to treat communication with the respect it deserves in a way it sounds like that’s exactly what the field needs is a book that that that you know the average person can understand get excited about does it have let strategies in it that we can actually put into practice we can actually use and if it’s not a self-help book and I really wanted to not go he’ll help with that I do end with five things you can do to have a better conversation and that includes things like the two people say one of them might be like don’t feel dry. Might sound like a strange thing to advise people not to do but will I basically showing his people who are trained to build a pool that means maybe in the soil environmental or anywhere else is being trying to do things that we can show when we look at real talk in the wild eat in the wild

the projective guessing the customer and get people to do it all the time because I’ve been trying to do it and it sounds like it should be okay and so I am fascinated by the idea that people are trying to do things like talk about the weather Small Talk ask how are you today on the train to do those things because someone has thought about sounds okay but it does not see what I can realtor so we think communication is important enough to train people to communicate back there but we don’t really think it’s important enough to look at the science of conversation to build the weather is really working or not

okay listen is listen up I think just been hearing conversation analysis is a fascinating topic and a very deep wanted lot a podcast episode can only scratch the surface of the insides this field is generated did you get the full picture and to learn how to use this technique to build better conversation interfaces I encourage you to pick up a book on the subject I was just published around up at the best books on conversation analysis and getting time taking and have a choice of words can affect the action taken by the user go to voicetechpodcast.com

the best book on the list is a ghost talk the science of conversation by Elizabeth Stokoe which is just been released and there were so many other books for beginners and advanced me to the subject on that to head over to voicetechpodcast.com Leo find the link to Elizabeth book and all the other recommended conversation analysis books

okay so now let’s get back to this amazing episode

all right so what they what kind of what kind of conversations you and if you guys been studying then what settings have you been researching

I actually touching is a very diverse kinds of everything from which I actually abandon fairly quickly cuz it might be the first time I’ve looked at people fighting media access Council people buying Windows peel bank holidays and most currently interested in crisis negotiation so into suicidal people in crisis but also looking at simulated interaction so I am quite interested in showing how simulated traction with is playing the part of a suspect or patient or client how they interact with the people who are the professional and how that is different to what happens when

somebody who is really a suspect or a client or patient in tracks of the study of the sound mainstream way in which people understand and learn about communication which is the problem in the thing that I have taken for granted this is the best way to understand that were in communication skills and learn them so it turns out that people doing things quite differently when they are really a suspect in a police interview them when they have to use entertain Immortals on real tight so you can just make it up and head for the best thing

it’s just a massive industry and a huge the best way to train and people’s ability to communicate is through at the moment I’m also looking at not just situations by people know they’re going to role-play so if you’re not going to fall of suspected in a police interview a whole situation is designed to test whether or not the police officer then you go to interviewing everyone knows I’m in the simulation buy Appliance telephone Services telephone the customer service when they when comparing them to me to people who are really starting the service when the cool type of just know that this is actually a mystery shopper

Lakes right now just let it show how interesting it is that if a human being can simulate being the owner of a car or a holiday or when they telephone icon look like another human being we need to really think about the Sounds in an emergency situation how they going to do everything to be somebody else as this is a bit too big of an Oscar and yeah I’ve studied some of these setting because one of the things that we do this conversation out of this is collaborative data analysis so you often find yourself looking at that says it comes from

any number of tasks specific work environments or helpline data collected a bunch of dates with Gallery visit that was what I started out with the king of people visiting to take Morgan which was exciting to see how they deal with all of the different challenges he faced arriving in a gallery with with another person dealing with these conversations in a gallery with with whom visitors to the Tate modern gallery and it was random visitors arriving and just talking to each other about what they saw so I only had to fix microphones and then you just got more interested in every day to working in fact the work I’ve been doing since starting my Play store has been looking at similar questions to the ones that Liz has about

each of these different task oriented contacts having quite different requirements to the participants are in weight simulator 18 being in a particular role is its own task and so people will have to deal with the landscape of the interaction between the different things and the humanist report cheap recording in relation to in the wild recording to be something cool and so we’ve collected Corpus of this point around a hundred hours of people sitting in to audio isolated rooms with a sheet of glass in between them having a conversation that way we can have really nice high quality video in Kodi I said it we can do tsp on the island but this is really fat psycholinguistics service in the context of the Berkeley studies

she’s not the kind of guy to that conversationalist and we look at their interested in the ways people deal with things in everyday life and people talking to each other around the campus what would you stop them and get them might find in Austin to continue that conversation but as ever you never quite get naturalistic my pussy face because if we approached how to make no sense knocked into action has a beginning and nobody’s never truly not from the microphone and many of us prefer to is one of our colleagues Jonathan Potter Dead social scientist test which is the date that you recorded would have happened. It happened whether or not you made it there if you had a horrible accident on the way to the recording and then it counts is naturalistic ambition but they stopped in production to that so you have to work

I miss looking at what we lose when you move into more controlled environment if anything and what is the cost of the people involved in in the lobby bar Inman and should we not test linguistically or experimental a given that we just won’t be able to recreate it in the lab. All right I’m not interested in hearing like a bit more about the details of of one studying particular maybe we can walk through an example and let’s do you think you could take a tree that might give us a example of the study of what Tom and that the steps you took to I thought of that I could talk about this is a story that had its origins in some Outreach what I was doing with mediators as the outcome of a previous project and when I go out into the world

often people in the room who actually realize one day when I was at the time be in crisis unit that they were fascinated by the time I was able to show them in mediation required light up to the spices negotiation and so after some time to look at the material with a view in the end to going back and taking the fun things to the inquest unit are you with the transcripts of Kohl’s on the other Nicole odeio you going back to the lab to analyze it and then you pretend with with your findings is that is not how it what

well not quite so this is kind of interesting because the guy said that I was provided with all found dead so so just like so was mentioning other about the about the Mystic they said it’s you he’s a quite nice recording because they made by the police anyway not because the researcher might want them so they’re made by the police audio recordings of that negotiations with y’all sometimes on the telephone with a suicidal person face-to-face or some combination of physical distance you might be able to face to face on the on the phone at the same time and is negotiations ranged in length from maybe an hour couple of hours old way to reach up LinkedIn negotiations

all steps for them to transcribe the dates of the bacon so because we are from what with large they took at least my way to start is to get everything transcribe the baked him and then stop to listen to the material and decide which fits need the forensics of the transcripts what we do in conversation analysis start to build collections of things that we think is in a lemon

annotating the first tree just transcribe at with normal English to you and then you and then you then you wanna taste it with some some Maca features of intonation Rises and falls over Lots timing tasting that was my system, cuz I think that the line broke up money when you said that said the name

stop that mean things all the time but this conversation so one of the first things that we noticed in these encounters with how sick people they were and how opposing negotiation is going to take time because it has to so if you are suicidal person on a roof to negotiation is going to take time and someone is going to change their mind then that is going to be a wise person

it can be useful to think about these negotiations as in a way that we might be interested in what happens with every single possible so that in future football matches you know that you’re so every single time masses because every time you negotiate to get the posting process to take they are choosing to say life so every single time I see what we were after was what kinds of things lay the interactional foundations for somebody to decide them and what kind of things get people to take to install taking a ton in a while I’m going to reply to you it’s supposed to but they are moving towards coming down

Robert that moving towards jumping as a negotiating used to engage or not so it’s pretty and you might think can you sit and eat would think this if you were a typical kind of psychologist that whether or not a person in crisis is going to talk depends on the medical history of all sorts of other demographic factors that are shaped as they don’t have all of the information about a person in crisis. I just need to give you a

so what is it that is on managing to achieve and can we show the difference that was made so recently and they can say yes I got a recovering recovering that way I’d have any coffee yet the output of the previous steps to 2 to go on and what they know about the conversation the evidence of weather when will anytime what is the next turn it in that way like I don’t know what you talkin and they ironeyes the word talk to them

when negotiating to say I’d like to speak to you but they don’t say there’s no point in speaking on that we have about actions speak louder than words separation resistance if you want someone to speak it doesn’t provide the same opportunity for resistance and the person in crisis. Sporting that the customer savings

plus I think what’s really nice about the finding is but you wouldn’t know it unless you look if I ask people what and also if everyone knew that speak with more engagements or you’re doing it with finding but speak what better than talk does not work it is not very context-dependent not. That works take awhile in a in a crisis negotiation situation or was that you know something they’re generally applicable to the old conversations which involved in a situation of some kind of action services

and it turned out that when offered me today’s business of other Touareg solution people resisted in exactly the same way people will resist tour which is closed because there is this very common idea that is not really doing very much people will resist to a solutions to things went over to them

I say I say I say really matters is that the choice of was to get people to engage in the process until and then while they were in it as well as goes all right and then Choice words obviously but it’s also the everybody is aware of the structure this interaction and that will vary from one setting to another but it’s more like the sequential context is something to be open to cry and say I again about the actions of the actors who were the times not the speakers because it focuses on how we construct that environment sequences that familiar no tree as a context Astros General general principles that we see cropping up time and again but it’s unlikely size dry contact dependent okay

93% statistic make it turned out that when people were asked if they would be willing to mediate or more like to say yes when they were interested in what you can say in the very precise ways in which people start to respond to questions about willing so for example what you see is as soon as I asked if that willing it doesn’t really explain the other the mental state of that the person who’s in it and I can see how the research into specific areas would be applicable and would be very useful for

I training employees who do encounter these same situations over and over again like the place they stop saying is all of that sort of sequential structure that is surrounding back to killer Moment by the mediator having trusted all the time it doesn’t work so if you have somebody right before they resisted saying yes to a service would you be willing to do it they it doesn’t it doesn’t work because they so it works you can see it working in visit in in settings why people have resisted doing something and also in settings were saying yes enables you to say something about me

I’ve been to the communication but what’s your opinion of the consumer attention now on you know things like Alexa read my Google assistant so it is not adopting a boon to your fuel filter reset and giving you the opportunities that I can find funding for an even

my opinion on them is that they still just incredibly limited and the ones that the most impressive obviously the ones where you can restrict the domain and that I think is just a result of the techniques that being applied to train in the systems that do natural language understanding and obviously we know the stage yet we have enough date or even a good enough understanding of the basic mechanisms of conversation in the wild and in the absence system very soft Pacific gold can be clearly it would be prudent for the fact that you’re whatever Koontz book a Hecox, that kind of simple request for information or to essentially turn the light switch on and off with your Voice winner at the stage where we doing conversational behaviors that you would recognize conversational

so I think that obviously interesting the progression of photosynthesis has been amazing and I can see the technologies that are available today to developers are really very significantly better than they have been put in any pain in the last three years that improve dramatic context of the conversation that we pulling people be willing to accept as passing the test of genuinely conversationally agents that we’ve got a really long way to go there and do some people say that the peak and peak in the end of the peak of the height for these these devices but take a dictation is that’s a conversation in today’s man. Is that the name the people have given to an industry’s using that is capable of holding a conversation and it just isn’t I think they say three or four times Max and it and it and it

the Popeyes in my experience has been less than that to be honest 2 minutes ready just keep an eye on this one and one question one outside absolutely not get that but my favorite was thinking about this is that the horses bolted to some extent and in that we have all of these products but we really need to go back and look at this table from which the horses bolted I’m sorry if you think about something like an Alexa do something like understand that when somebody is telephone what if you’re asking for a pizza before they ever quest to find the place is because it’s a very old lady

in the first place and that’s why you know it’s one of the reasons again why am I trying to build things trying to be other human beings buying a car and see where they make mistakes before we start building or at least use evidence from not to make he wants to be conversational going to have to be able to deal with things like

which is a result of the time to to try to understand conversation mental model of the things that they can say in response to specific occurrences but they’re not maintaining any kind of state of the person that that’s open to the hot give me the in a hundred different things depending on the contact but then I got to go to guess any of those because they speak into a civil process unit that’s coming off the front of the things that’s coming down the pipeline what would be your advice and people who wanted design conversation interfaces right now what would be some some easy wins have you seen some have you seen any kind of big mistakes that comes kitchen spaces I’m making it the moment and when and why is it you would improve them or do you think that lets does this huge come to ever come before we forget to anything resembling a private conversation

shine time they’re also some mistakes. These devices are perpetuating the time example of the use of the person’s name name is the owner of station of the device that might be used over know all the time and that isn’t how we use names in everyday interaction there are some basic things that the design is missing so in conversation analysis we have some cool Central tenets of conversation in my system recipient design is the idea that the most effective tool is designed as best fit for a respondent so if I say to you something like I stand from the office is too much information so we we are always thinking about what he was a recipient

I’m a ton speaker should not tell others what they were supposed the recipient already knows but if there’s set up my work so wet we’re always designing all tunes for all prisms recipients yo corny Audi today morning afternoon requesting I won’t be able to and so if you if you were the human being by using the same words all the time to do all of those things and you for being a very good conversation that you need to really think about you all recipient design and say these things are really liking in the foundational building of

they know it’s a subpoena we can show the people are strange those things in conversation I’m just science but it’s not translating into the development of the conversation in the face we have to provide provide the device with as much information as a as a humans able to glean from social interaction even to Strange’s can quickly clean a lot of information about you know that the best not speaking to White looking at them by listening to that as of the way they’re responding am I using that that that model of how the world exists in this point in time I’m done currently hosting prices on even take into account the thing they said previous to the thing that’s playing right now that they’re not even that does my memory between phrases let alone sorry Google what is a structure

how conversations and fold so there are no sew a series of interconnected questions but low in phases 7 realtor you might little series of questions and announces that all or part of one part of an activity in a bigger encounter with an S or so precious and you might use progressivity Marco so you might say finally or gnats and we also closed little sequences of talk as we move through them so we use something cool to see if I said to you what’s your name and you say call I might say grace and then this conversation they just don’t do it again

going to prank conversational things until we understand that our conversation was the whole time conversation in the face right yeah all right time to the things that the conversation agents I missing I think design was one of the times the least used and I think that’s a part of the South are the motto of the other that you’re having to construct in order to maintain equal into subjectivity but that fluids and contiguous on going to that tells us to intensive purposes we understand one another one of the reasons Nicole in technical terms is it was throwing out old is the cheese that people use in everyday tool to do that so this fluencies hesitation

partially produced words to this noise by and large we have this information model of communication and I’ve had that since the 1950s I did these

fragments are absolutely vital in explaining to one another at 3 to King what we’re following and what we not following in the news about the results to get interaction done it’s so it’s so important and Pine Lodge. Get car out of the immediate Leaf you using for example I saw system you just getting home electrical object and you throwing up fragments in breast hesitations a few people using a safe if people were interested I should look her Julianne Hough Matthew Perry and Chris houses were clean Topics in computer science where they look at how would you integrate this these kind of takeover miscommunication phenomena into an LP models one thing and the other the other major thing

missing is just people took that latency and not like to see the problem but I’m not sure the people quite appreciate how much of a problem license is because when you look at real tool fractions of a second all vitally important I thought you wouldn’t even be able to respond to voice command until you ingest it the whole time and I said I will never achieve what we know of this conversation because as CI shine even a 200 200 Service Act in this about you know that’s what you get to to do a responsive time and if you miss your cue becomes intelligible to something completely different that you’ll has light single those are real Technical and I think conceptual barriers to progress

diagram testing yes we’re a long way off but I was going to ask you about that the NLP stuff and how can we start to you know incorporate some of these miscommunications into the motos Robin just like this on the website and you need to come be detected he’s in the desert and if you guys are already working on it do you know what day to Corpus corporate they use and is it the same annotations is Les was talking about earlier with that was it that the particular case I was talking about I think the the dates of the using is British national Cooper State to which is one of the very few large-scale Open Access cooper cooper happened very well on it take to know that hasn’t been done on the level of detail that you could test required to CIA and that’s the major

she was one of the issues that we looking at and I’m trying to address by building Cooper and trying to scale up the kind of days of the week available that has been transcribed because you can transfer using Jeffersonian format button computer-readable using computer-readable transcription formats in of course you can use them to try to model you can use them as as input variables the the fattest for the most part I think that they’re pointing out with bring the stuff away and maybe we shouldn’t still at the stage I guess multi reticle has been employed and certainly not scale but yeah Liz and myself and and some pizza if they’re interested in working on can can we use what we’ve learned about in terms of the detail conversation interaction and provide an infrastructure for

integrated with the kinds of technologies that we now seeing being developed in the voice technology sector do you think it’s a good thing in general then if we if we do masteron and incorporate these findings into the new devices and suddenly they’re able to have conversations with with humans is a good thing is a good idea and ultimately is a good thing for Humanity and symptoms might be with something like all of the things that they actually useful and so you know if you got to some

ecology and then humans will do good and bad things with that technology. We wanted to use it in a responsible way. Is there a way to to Define what would be a responsible use of conversation interface or unethical use and how would you describe an ethical vs. unethical use of this kind of Technology

I think I’m as ethical probably depends on how networks into other systems and any conversation that you’re having with your your Alexa what what weather is going so serious conversation those things that actually improve whatever whatever I realized you’re trying to use it for a not separate question to what is Amazon doing with this I said that you are feeding it and I think that that sings this the technology and how good is it to help you out and then they’re giving away a question big social media director from last message

yes it is the Technology’s usefulness is a bit separate from the day so that it might generate the Royal Institution about nothing very interesting I’d like to see if we can be defined Light Festival what is a nudge and and the implications of of nudging and with these devices yeah I was using that as I mentioned before if you ask somebody if they’re willing to do something that might be more likely to say it if you asked me if they’re interested and would like me to talk to you if you asked me to speak to me those are things that are tilting the next turn of a conversation to a particular direction and language and grammar is constraining and holding

next turns all the time so we can always resist but I’m suppose I’m interested in that wants to go and save those mediated Amber’s police negotiators are already doing the things that one step removed impossible stunts to add something because I’m all the time in in some of the way in which it didn’t originate

nothing like on the borderline of getting people to do some advice after they might not otherwise have been any like big examples that stood out

it’s about the whole music literature is my saving it sits outside of my particular area of expertise on but I certainly do have choices to make as a conversation on this year’s approach regularly by an organization of all time with them exposed I think it is it ethical for me to expose for those who want to try and get one organization to do which is to can I show you my new sister reveal is most effective in environment but actually so far I haven’t been finding out because when it comes to something like a bowl

and then the people who are on the receiving end and get a bunch of you then everyone so how about you and eat anyway so we can like I’m used to detect enesco conversations that the might take place in a cool centoco coiling alternate space or whatever

well I’m interested in the in the area especially with what we’ve seen in social media and the kind of the importance of conversations and the bay and maintaining space in the bank at 5 whelmed by eight asymmetric Technologies one of the things that you obviously see with the use of bought and sold it and I think the idea refers as voice agents is disturbing and it seems what kind of dystopian sci-fi is that far off the reason I’m

mystical thing is that when you do find these kind of naturalistic notches are inherently in a way no ethical but that was designed for the other and they designed with an understanding of the others participation in the production of reaction whole question of Ethics gets grounded outside is very abstract debate about in a corporate policy anyway and it gets grounded in this interaction and tomato soup very interesting standard some of the the what is been looking at the one on Dobbin Center. Naturalistic notches include the some any study which become a bit of soul

conversation analysis were essentially a John Heritage Inn and Jeff Robinson and colleagues did was to look at how the doctors in adult patient interaction the primary care setting how did they move the consultation to a close weather closing is approaching cuz you’ve been there for whatever be allocated time is around 15 minutes you can you patient presentation and this is Connie landscape of that kind of conversation and it has the structure that is quite regular and what do you have any other anything else you have any other questions or any other concerns and do what any seems is a very strong knowledge against there being anything that comes up at the end of that I saw that only yeah he said you got anything else do you have some money

linguist for a while that they are all times that Pennswoods expansion you wouldn’t ask somebody would you like any more cake that’s not the way that question unless you really don’t want to have any more cake so we kind of understand these things already know what I mean by that is designed for the symmetry of the interaction where is I think the concerns people often have me looking at voice into faces and voice technologies that we will lose that symmetry with a sense of the construction of the action the other because you can deploy a thousand voice agents to cool a thousand people and you are the only person doing that appointment so those were really I mean they’re interesting issues I guess until we see them in the wild you wouldn’t understand what their effects are and we can only speculate as to how they

and baby I know I got the feeling that does the fast end if a solution that most of the big Tower Plaza Resort if he got them all day to run you just as many through as many modes of data and as often as possible and yeah it’s kind of what we’re doing is he misses its data Gathering all the time and now these might consider is what would what would you prefer a Chop House answering the phone. She progresses you through a system and get you to your goal quickly or human being that is a 69 with a script and they were deviate from the script and we all know what those incredibly frustrating conversations always with human beings on so it’s not like

a study that was given skirts and everything about some of the humans people find out more about conversation analysis then

they can certainly find out more from the ground by soul and I have all sorts of things online so I have I text you can watch this so wrong station analysis science events at New Scientist

I had a flat conversational roller coaster vent install a brake by briefly then what what did that involved in the conversation analysis where people could witness how do people gather data transfer a title deed analysis and come up with findings and he could participate in it so yeah Google conversational roller coaster you find amazing recordings of that and the explanation that were purchased by a dozen eggs which is a design firm that really is for table of how do we achieve these technology how did each of the steps in the research process connects one another so hopefully that is helpful if we’ve never done it before but I do side point people to buy the latest version of the psychologist magazine which is the British Psychological Association publication and Liz just edited

a whole segment in that application about the science of to which I think is really nice introduction to many of the things we’ve been talking about and why this is good. Nice to use some of these findings in in designing conversation devices do you have any recommendations for funny tools then code or or even though I training courses they could think you’re going to have to get into the field on based they are introductory and more times. Conversation analysis and I generally like to three days at a time so that you can do those things

is also a Wiki vem CA Wiki which I maintain that has a huge list of all the places around the world where you can study conversation analysis at undergraduate and postgraduate level and also an enormous bibliography and a lot of resources and change these people to have to wear a coat outside how to transcribe very welcoming Twitter communities are people want to understand something more about conversation analysis going to Twitter and check the EMC a hashtag and there’s a lot of people if you very excited to answer questions and and interact on the basis of sharing this science I think that it’s a really nice music that’s the name some great results as he’s mentioned that he has trained causes people to go in-depth and that they can reach out to her right away to get a cat that got the basics all right

failed I’m just starting out in D but what you wish you knew before you before you started a conversation analysis study

I didn’t know about conversation analysis when I started out so one might think I was I was I just know more about your shooting at the nice Journey figuring out of all of the stuff myself started because I wished I have known something else at the thought of me

I think for me I wish that I had come to it with a few questions and it’s been more open to just discovering what was in front of me I think that was that was a discipline I had to learn and that seems to be one of the things that many people get excited about as a lot more about CIA is that you can look anywhere for instruction and where you find that you find such fascinating and interesting ways of doing things that just haven’t been studied in detail so I definitely encourage people if they’re interested in conversation analysis if they’re interested in studying human attraction the spices that such a lot of work to be done and so many opportunities to look at the interfaces between conversation analysis and computational Linguistics and all of the fields that are neither voice tech people are involved in a while so I encourage them to come to laugh

Loughborough in January I’ll be working at with lace and satin encourage people come and have a look on the AMC app for other opportunities are many yet around the UK and Scandinavian all the way to Asia and will it be you ask this but it’s a really interesting and very well distributive saying that you could plug into on the phone all right well I can people find fun what you do out online I know you mentioned being so what’s that jail website or on Twitter handle handle is at school and my congratulations.

yeah definitely Advantage so night and you said it was some soul outfit done that the website lets how about you have contact you online

I’m at least Stokoe on Twitter and I have website www.com training.org where you can see all of the various stocks online and it’s wonderful to talk to you by not find it thank you once again thanks so much call really enjoyed that

okay so you just had from Elizabeth Stokoe professor of social interaction at Loughborough University in the UK and Saul Albert postdoctoral research associate at Tufts University in Massachusetts United States I was a really wonderful conversation that I like to just how much is going on in a human conversation and I just how far we have to go to properly emulate this with technology so that’s over today I hope you enjoyed listening as always you can check out the show notes voicetechpodcast.com voice chat podcast. Comes to books Leo find the link to Elizabeth book and all the other recommended conversation analysis books I forgot you’re supposed to show just how one friend will call you about this episode and if you’d like to become a Patron tequila shot free Airtel voicetechpodcast.com goodnight

set up like saying with another episode but until then I’ll be your host Carl Robinson thanks for listening to the voice chat podcast

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