Elevated Voice Design – Vasili Shynkarenka, Invocable – Voice Tech Podcast ep.019

Vasili Invocable

Episode description

Vasili Shynkarenka is CEO and co-founder of Invocable, an online tool that lets you prototype voice applications without coding. Formerly known as Storyline, the company has now pivoted from an Alexa skill builder into a first-class voice application design tool. In our conversation, you’ll learn all about the reasons behind the pivot, the main differences between Invocable and Storyline, and how you can use Invocable to design better voice apps.

Vasili shares his experience of seeing thousands of voice applications developed on Storyline, and his advice to voice interaction designers for what works and what doesn’t. We discuss the power of multi-modal interaction, and how to design visual interfaces in Invocable. We also discuss predictions for 2019, the major problems with in the voice industry right now, copy cat startups and much more.

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Episode transcript

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welcome to the voice tech podcast join me Robinson in conversation with the world leading Voice technology experts discover the latest products tools and techniques and learn to build the voice up to the Future is something of somewhere is the nothing of nowhere when you copy something by you’re always one step behind

hello and welcome back today’s episode is entitled elevated voice design and which I hear my conversation with vasili Shankar rancor mean if you will already be familiar with the silly as the founder of storyline I one of the first tools that allowed anyone to build a publishing Alexa skill while the company is now pivoted and vasilias now CEO and co-founder of invocable an online tool that lets you prototype voice applications without coding doing a conversation your learn all about the reasons behind the Pervert and some of the main differences between invocable and storyline and how you can use invocable to design better voice acts as he shares his experiences that the thousands of voice applications that he seen development storyline and did some of his advice to avoid interaction designers for what works and what doesn’t we discussed the power of multimodal interaction and how to design visual interfaces in invocable the silly give us his predictions for 2019 are we discuss some of the Major

is with voice right now copycat startups and and much more so it’s a great episode so a lots been happening since you last heard from me I launched my weekly newsletter voice chat Tuesday I would is your weekly voicetech treat that helps you build better voice that I’ve had an amazing response much better than I anticipated actually for the first issue got a 43% open rate and a 6.3% click rate which is Ant old is very good web of the industry average massive thank you to everyone who got involved to open the newsletter who read it and they kept on the links and for your positive comments on Twitter as well if you’d like to sign up for voice chops Tuesday then just go to voicetechpodcast.com / newsletter is a nice mix of useful stuff and fun stuff is easy to read it’s not too long and the next she goes out on Tuesday and surprisingly and given that I’ve just started working with the NLP don’t be too surprised to see if you take the links in there about that next up I want to say a huge thank you to Benjamin

gnr for the coming out the latest sponsor for the voice tech podcast and Benjamin if you remember is a valid data scientist whom I interviewed way back in July 2018 episode 6 and decided to jump in and contribute $4 a month to keep the show running so Benjamin thank you so much I really appreciate it at speak in which if you’d like to support the show and just go to voicetechpodcast.com / donate ivory check that that is a little bit so now listeners can support and the show at the bit nibble byte levels for $1 $4 $8 a month respectively and really your contribution is the only thing that help me keep the show running and it really makes the show possible but I’ve also introduced a couple new patreon tears are available for businesses so if you’ve got something to promote and then you can now become a voice tech champion and there’s two levels and as the written word champion

and the spoken word champion so for the red white champion you can get your company logo and link displayed on the weekly email newsletter. Tuesday and also are your logo and link on their on the front page of the book House website and finally got to get priority publishing for any articles that you submit to the voicetech blog and of course those articles will be featured in the newsletter as well as the spoken word champion I’ve decided to bite the bullet and offer some advertising advertising space on the Park House itself and I’m offering a 30 second pre rolled promotional message but can buy me on every Podcast episode while you’re at a spoken word champion and you’re so get a larger logo with their bringing placement on the weekly newsletter and website as well so if that’s of any interest go to voicetechpodcast.com / tonight at thanks in part to the sponsorship I’ve now had a virtual assistant already handed some of the social media test in their stuff that just eat set my time and I am already passed

moreover to out to them as a delegation now becomes pretty addictive pretty quickly but it is helping me to go to work on the episode which is great finally I’m still inviting guest authors to publish content on The Voice tech blog I’m looking for evergreen content that will help people build better voice apps and we’ve already posted a popular articles from a number of thought leaders in the space and with many more on the way as if you got some content that you like to share with the voice tech audience as well as the singing at to me and you can also submit your own content through the new South service form you can just go to voicetechpodcast.com / publish and you can copy and paste in your text upload your images and I’ll get up on the site assuming it meets the editorial guidelines which will also see that alright so without further ado it’s now my pleasure to bring me today’s guest by silly shynkarenka ok so I’m here with silly shynkarenka vco and

co-founder of invocable formerly known as storyline invokable is an online tool that lets you prototype voice applications without coding for silly working to the show thank you so much for having a call I really appreciate it is great to have you on as a user of your your products and you wanted the leaders in the voice space as I’ve wanted to talk to you for a long time no see let’s take it off then with just maybe you can give us a an introduction into what is invocable and who does it help invited over to you very close to production products and actually pass them on the real axis without writing a single line of code so we started fighting more than a year ago are blah by launching storyline which was a platform or create an Alexa skill start writing and yeah we like just in the past

there we have had more than 5 salmon scales building to the start or are we decided to change our product and change our Focus and focus specifically on the design parts and that’s actually a really great reason to do this podcast awaken elaborate on that a little bit ok so so to clarify that before you could build and publish full Alexa skills are only Alexa there was only Alexa skills I only went ok but you could build a relatively advanced skills and with a drag-and-drop interface now you still have that drink drop interface but the skills that you sent to them to Amazon are only there for the testing prototyping purposes we can’t actually release them to the general public is that right

yeah we had this season that voice is going to be here are the next interfacing that stick interface of people interact with technology and you just want to be part of going to be part of this wave and Sam we were thinking about what can a product with a belt to support decision and then the first product with storyline are which was a tool to create a lot anyone or without technical background creative publishing Alexa skill to the store so what kind of a platform that do not storyline we lost it in the end of September last year and when we launched through line with had had one core hypotheses in which was non-tech people are actually able to you create high quality time without writing any code because what skills are relatively simple so that was our hypothesis and yeah

Garnier forward or a lot of amazing things happened with storyline of God those fighting in scales been published the store are many fantastic product reviews for a viral product of some sort of people were just like spreading the word about it but the way we’ve also got our corporate but this is so sad Alexa skills are a really simple that was our initial hypothesis alternative is Alexa skill some really really complex and we thought about that as long as more of a far off a constant pace with other than Alexa skills accountant is right and therefore non-tech people especially people they are able to produce high-quality counting our address is more like a product on its own so it’s more it’s much more like like the mobile app on the on your iPhone and if you take a look at the

on screen right you do not have or on your main screen you don’t have mobile apps that use like once advised you only have apps that use every single day xx Facebook Instagram photos can I think so and I think that this is the thing that most people get wrong about election so they think that I am Alexa skills are just like pieces of art of War 1 tanks in that you can just put it out there and and it takes and it actually doesn’t so that’s understands to your hypothesis before was it was a content delivery system which I suppose explains why the premium version of of storyline was was focused on flash briefing that was like getting that that regular content out and then the rest of that was actually free but you then you realise that as other platforms became more and more sophisticated and and looking back at what worked on mobile that the that really really what the future held

Michael fully featured voice applications that that you would have to continue to support was that the reason behind the that the pivot then because it’s all these things becoming more and more complicated and and therefore you would have to keep keep the Madding are in an atom parity to you at your own platform what’s the reason why we change the name change the name that such a short explanation write the weather with another startup or less years now and I say I don’t care about that about those things that start a new start yet when you think about it so that was the

the second reason was that I will product was was not working quite well so what I mean by that is if you take a look at any platform out there I just want to relax with steak and pasta is made up of 20 or squarespace for building websites you can you can see that on a platform is one has on when the product has a very flexible and repeatable use case that you can scale so what I mean by that is that there are like a bunch of people in the wild Atlantic bright and he with a slide template for the barber shop example they put their name on their front page of the site and I get to go right person so what you know that Alexa skills are actually quite different and some through only if you use cases that work through the well and the Legends by Juice case is not is not one of those

and such cases that work really well as they need they need craftsmanship they needs to be designed from scratch and it makes so it makes sense to have a boyfriend for building those things because he cannot template I start rite shoes that that was like the second reason why we why we made this decision that the reason was that are there are some limitations on in the platform model and especially in Durham in the output of fashion which is a skill or there are some problems with skills right now that prevents growth and I do think that some of them are solid answer with an orange but yeah that’s our problems with skills right now that was on the 1st or the 3rd I’m some of the third reason why interesting ok I’m yeah I saw in terms of the templating that im Spiegel actor has their The Blueprint function as well so did you find that some of the functionality that you are hoping to provide

storyline was also being replicated on on the platform side as well that must have made it a little bit more difficult as well reading dislike things personally to go with her friends because you look Princes like it is like a toy you cannot even you cannot even create something because they’re all the temple dies and it might be ok what’s the what’s what’s take a comfortable shoes in charge of story if your bum is thorium it might be fine to go to the prince and just editor little big big sister Town by but you forgot your new one you would have to create one from scratch but the problem with Horus army use Kaspersky else is that what day is pancake two months on creating a very tough not sorry hi sorry you hire voice actors you do you sound design or like Productions owl sound design or are they just seem a lot

Hollywood arts high quality or high-quality content and you’re wanting a story and you end up having people trying your story and never coming back part of the reason is that you only have one story and why would they come back in the first place and now you realise that reproduce or would you like to build a real product you have to have a story it’s like you have to have a new story every day yeah I’m just becomes this constant custom process of putting out yet and turn and it becomes all consuming as the same too I am a previous guest and citra digital taxi the problem that I faced when I was trying to produce a chatbot is there is basically a full time full time job just producing the content and you say that the users become rjd2 as well you not only have to keep producing the contact you have to keep coming up with new ideas and yeah it’s a never-ending battle

I like a dad joke or a fart noise right that’s like the most popular ones but you did something that works extremely well I don’t really think that armpits going to be possible to do that in a visual interface so that was or I will take the third or the fourth reason why we change the model know my son’s ok let’s talk about their own vocal than then and now we know where it’s come from I’ve just had a play with it if you want to stay at the interface looks largely the same as you’ve kept most of the interface components from storyline at that even her a publishing tab still which gives the impression that you can still publish to the same job end of the year ok so after January 1st and what what will the what will invocable look like and what what will we be able to do with it

storage from taking the very same interface that we had when we when we play this Orlando Disney face is actually good right and what we ended up having a party when is that because I use it for what it was not intended to be used for which is designed so that the platform and will get many designers using it for just the design for the design approach that but that was interesting to me because we were clearly building like a platform that are designed to write and they were still isn’t it so we talked about and realise that they were succeeding with the product because the product was having a problem for them and for what’s a mistake like are small and medium or medium sized business who wants to be on her likes and wants to watch something then we were failing at our job because the goal is not to have an Alexa skill on its own isn’t it the girl

is to get some marketing from Alexa or to generate leads from Alexa or talk too much of business processes are coming back to your skill and are interacting with an engaging with them so we were clearly found it at that and yeah it’s partly your fault it’s partly that is a square not educated enough it’s also on how to build like really engaging staff and it’s only because it’s really hard to create a very engaging scale and I actually think that are only like a few people or a few teams can do that right now on and especially to use because they have to say they have a project manager ride the have a person who is job is to talk to user and I would say 99% of people of Alexa developers don’t do that they don’t talk to you the people who are actually use their skills and you

do they build a really good one so I ask is because it’s the hardest part of the processing and off when you don’t want to hear that you tell your partner you have to listen to have to implement are there feedback in the scale so it’s very iterative the most people think of it as a one-time process do you put something quickly out there and that’s that and that’s not the way to work absolutely I am so many accommodation in a bar when you know one guy has an idea for her for an amazing after an amazing voice skill that you know it’s like she don’t tell anyone this is like the idea and of course what’s missing from that is that all the implementation that would that would follow to make that into actually actually a successful ideas we Wesley reduce the functionality it was kind of weird right because the product was kind of the purpose free before and reduce the functionality a little bit and we made it like

paid only so are we would use the functionality because you fucker some guys like about me some problem like how do I decide how I passed and we’ve added a couple of things to the specific to the specific features that or which are conditions which are which is also like variables are little bit more master balls are we are working on Mac model next like how to talk to people on ability to design for 4/4 devices for Screens and it will work carried out and we are working on user testing as well but how do we make it easy to do user testing and to generate reports remember is awesome things that kind of thing but it sounds like you’ve you taking the advice of many a start-up mentor either producing MVP it’s getting traction you listen to your users you’ve observed the

how the using it and now you refine the products her to really target one no one else use case they identified so you can be the best in that niche as opposed to being ok across a number of nieces the Predator solve the problem for our users and that’s the reason why we fight with the exchange ok 140 what’s the process of of prototyping a voice app in invocable then and can you prototype at bicep size SIM for all platforms now it’s not it’s not only Alexa specific or towards the end of the process in the end of the design process how the design process for example this is Dad they start from ideation and research or are they understand

make sense in a boy’s experience right and then they they generate somebody doesn’t ask to save yes really quickly so this is where are this is the middle of the process this is where invocable Cancer or without you all there able to pass the radius without writing any code they can just create my they can create products of aerobic and they can boss Force protection elect and they come in and talk to the sports that so that’s like the first round of testing that’s how they choose the best idea to work on that once they got like the best of the heart does the 56 bus kill they start building a very high fidelity prototype is very very close to production but it’s not it does not like it it’s missing some features that are either very hard to build into visual interface or impossible to build sample you can not or implement play object oriented programming interview

is that are the the greatest hyperdontia do another run user testing to make sure that they got the copyright that uses are the fuses understand what the skewer the body use don’t understand what the skilled ask or hard to get help and things like that and then they get to the coat so there’s no such hard that we have now the initial user testing that’s more of a low fidelity prototype so we’re working on simplifying that because I’m building a high c. 151st from building in love without you want nexplanon that was a bit later and then they building a half a dollar to prepare a close reproduction and II start that you want to have them with us how do I do a designer might ask how do I hand this after my developer build our second part of our of the design process like once you’ve got the project ready how do you how do you make it easy for your developer

get started with actually coding this girl without going round scratch turn on the Wi-Fi specifications that kind of thing so you clearly outlander the three-step process for the the ideation than the high fidelity prototype and then finally that the code and you mentioned that you had a feature or you’re going to develop a feature that allows and promotions designers to invite our users into the product to actually I test the prototypes is that is that currently implemented or are they would you would you think of collaboration arm from the team stand for item from the user testing sample from the t stand for want you be able to invite your members are two invocable share projects with Amazon project together or that Starbucks like that’s the number one thing that is required staff for 4

has time on the first thing that way they were working on his that will give you an ability to do user testing when you invite someone put an activation start ask you ask them to talk to the device back to your skin so what will happen is that are on on your screen on invocable interface you have arm you have your skill and you have or a path that they’re taking through the skill and while they’re talking to the skill you can actually take now to you cannot remember what they’re what they want to get right up with the gift Ron and things like that and as a result you will get report of what’s a what what what kind of things they understood within the thing spoken utterances they they didn’t understand things like that yeah I’m busy doing at all that would be you

buy designers and project managers like in situ bring the uses into the office or in some kind of focus group and I mention that you are absolutely so if there is a collaborative tool but I mean Minds don’t even vision was you could conduct these tasks remotely as well you could send a link out and get people to invite people as well but our life from what we are so far from there the person who is your pastor is much more important so if you do have resources to do that like just do that because remote user testing is ok if you if you need some scale alright but you would get you get much more deeper insights from in 8:30 yeah you lose a lot of

am I not actually watching people don’t you just get that are not what they did the postcode is crucial so ok great so it’s going to be able to give me a design tool for the teams and and potential end users as well

ok listening listen up I’ve just launched the voice chops Tuesday and you weekly newsletter that helps you build better voice apps just go to voicetechpodcast.com / newsletter to sign up it’s a nice mix of useful stuff and fun stuff easy to read and it’s not too long the next day she goes out on Tuesday to sign up now in time for the next issue also all the past episodes are available through that link to its voicetechpodcast.com / newsletter do it now I look forward to Tuesday’s are you enjoying the show but haven’t yet become a sponsor when I was your chance just go to voicetechpodcast.com / donate your contribution really does make the show possible listeners can support for at the bit nibble or bite levels that’s $1 $4 $8 a month respectively to help keep the show running there’s also new patreon tears available for businesses did you got something from to promote how about becoming a voicetech champion the root of 1 champion allows you to put your company logo and link on every weekly email newsletter.

Tuesday you also get your company logo and link on the front page of The Voice tech podcast website and you get priority publishing for articles that you submit to the voice tech blog become a spoken word champion to get all of that plus a 30 second pre-roll promotional message spoken my me on every biweekly Podcast episode does he get a larger logo with premium placement on the weekly amount newsletter and website just go to voicetechpodcast.com / donate ok let’s get back to this amazing episode was listening on them to be good to get some get your advice but you’ve got love experience watching people design design skills of a psychopath and storyline so you must have seen there are some good examples and some and some not so good ones yeah so maybe if you share a limit of advice and still you know what what you discovered that developers typically struggle with in her voice interaction design questions they ask you you gotta be a great Facebook group of more than 3000 people now so people are always interesting on there

what what kind of stuff usually comes up with different for many companies so some people come people start from stuff from invocable directly stamp some people start from June the user research or if there are you are right armpit usually like that the number one thing is it’s hard to you how to make the experience sound less robotic and more human that’s like that the number one thing because I’m so for example just just a few quick tips and then we can go to the core are to the core reason I’m so quick tips that you can just do right now like if you if you take the only thing from today’s podcast you can you can remember that you need to use ssml this is like Eric

wild thing I’m not it’s not an option anymore so people are by the way we would eat analyse all all the skills that are out there in the skill store on and what you learn from those hundreds of thousands of user reviews that they leave for skills are on the Amazon page is the number one complaint is that they are so if you just use prosody acid symbol the fan you can yeah you can wait increase your chances of being successful are so yeah I just use of a manual process at the moment actually have to add intonation question they’re all they’re just so we’re going to simplify will give you like ability to survive

tax and NI are an excellent yeah yeah you can you can do that right now till dad’s I will take the number one thing if you if you would just do that you’d be better off than 90% of all the developers just use the robotic Alexa voice to another thing is if you can I would recommend using voice actors I don’t think it’s sustainable in the long run but that’s kind of weird that people prefer actually here but it’s interesting that people prefer our voice actors over of exercise so if you if you’re running the Brand and your brand has the recognisable boys already off example your TV show Brighton you have a horse on that and all your audience knows who this person is that it makes sense for you to record something using the hot sauce or because we are just from the brand perspective and from there

Mrs back to add mixed mixed reviews on that on at 0.7% people say yeah it’s fantastic Four brand recognition of people say maybe it’s not great to tie your tie your brand to a specific person just in case they died that they do something do something undesirable in the real world you know like off the rails there so there’s that anyway if you just compare like you saying that’s a regular alexa’s voice pride or are professional voice actor the difference is like panax and experience so I actually think it’s more than 10x are so I would like based on work based on one moment in accident engagement announcements and how how much time people spend listening to the bus but I think that’s a very good match with writing if you want people to spend more time with your skills do that

I have no doubt person experience that I do I do agree on a shirt on the last episode actually though I tried their the Skyrim Alexa app which is obviously a lot of time and gone into that but it was I was let down by the fact it was just a Lexus standard yes and completely didn’t match the you know the adventure of a kind of thing that all call yeah so those are kind of things that song I would recommend to do you like immediately on another thing is just just your Design process and general so many people ski pass time and I’m not sure why maybe because it takes time and it’s kind of confusing and frustrating because because you’re basically like you basically have to put your saying in front of a person and ask the person to talk to the right so that’s the first thing and yeah I would just recommend pants

arm and a lot of time do user testing before actually writing a single line of code and you couldn’t do that Sara without you love with any other chill out there are rabbits it’s like it’s essential alarm option is not an optional step you absolutely need to iterate early and often and invocable can help you with that just an interpretation question to satisfy my curiosity like if we can upload if you can prototype something in invocable and we can send it up to Amazon and have it run on Alexa device and it all sounds great so you’re still performing that kind of translation between like your your representation on on your app and what what Alexa need in order to build a run the scale so why is it that you can’t just take that final step in and just make that still alive because it sounds like it’s a perfectly fully functioning scale on your device I was missing so the thing thing is that

but I think that people who go like the easy way to build a simple shed light run to the store they turn Germany that they lose their first time users come along they never come back I live in a very simple one tries to the store and they consider yourself and they they they start thinking like this button doesn’t work as I have 0 users but the problem is that in the fashion right are the problem is that you skip are you a couple of very essential steps in the process are you think but it’s quite hard to build a great way to take to into together or it makes it makes very little sense for us to leave publishing out there but not there good reasons you don’t be

sponsor before that the poorer quality apps on on the market place you want to be producing you know I think that you know the highest quality service in the news that you’re targeting so much better quality I just say that most people dance or don’t quite understand how Alexa works ok let’s talk about motor multimodal as well as you bring up the weather now little but the visual side of things and they’re Alexa presentation language is that something that you guys be looking out as well as seeing the first person in the next couple of quids so please go check it out that’s going to be like the first part of model designed to allow there are because right now you can underwrite EPL how do you cannot assign this and keep it as a result so please go check it out but we are doing

line art invocable interface are we have to have this concept of blocks rights are and where each block is an interaction between a voice assistant which is Alexa and it’s writing something down by play some sounds of my do some API calls and then it ends with user replies and user replies take the conversation to the next to each block you have to be patient and will I get visual setting are in the sidebar and once you click on that you will dive into the visa centre which is going to be a completely different interface from the cannabis so editor will look like they are very close to sketch or you have like your sidebar on the right to have options that you’ll have our things like are multiple object to be able to add text visuals background images for drawing images things like that and you’ll be able to use multiple time

are more stuff from scratch so you can start from Custom one and just put your own kind of weasels canvas or you could start from pre built that you can do can you give us some examples of the things that allows us to do to make you can not just as a button which is an object inside you can make an image a button write a little something you can just press the one that you want that’s right yeah I think you’ll be able to also be videos and things like that right now like a city or things like that are very important and interesting to this multimodal in there in a nutshell sounds like it’s a work in progress it’s a huge topic but obviously massively increases the other utility of the oven pokeball and is that what you see

the industry guy in a minute I’m hearing a lot now that really is not going to be voice only for long cos if you take any skill are there I’m just start using it right there is a very high chance that you will drop off somewhere in the middle of the experience because people get distracted like very easily so let’s say that you you’re listening to you to the audiobook right or you’re playing with axes kills just kind of the same a little bit different actually other book you can go back 15 seconds and Alexa skill you can so let’s say that you skip that you’ve got a new Instagram your phone and use the question 2 there is a very high chance that you will get nowhere as a result so you have to constantly keep paying attention to the skin off when you’re playing this

and that there is like that is a very very hard task for human a human being because people are yes to remind me actually other a YouTube video a lot a lot of these are famous YouTubers and if you look if you watch some of these YouTube videos which have millions of views the and natural visuals a very simple there just basically dancing designs on the screen designed to serve maintain your attention while most of the information is transmitted via the audio an arm and when people like when people but just give a crush on the roofs like very little chance they will get the answer right and you’ll just lose them to right now if you’re building a skill which has are more than the J3 turn dialogue or each staff constantly increases the chance that people will drop her

write to you put in this like linear model is not exponential that people will drop off later on and experience the more turns you add to the dialogue actually solve this problem is the multi model are the multimodal interface because now you have if you have a back right if you if you skip the question you can take a look at the screen and your options will be right there so you will know what to say or what type of the screen so I think that’s that’s a very like that that score improvement and it’s it’s essential when I think that in the next year we’ll have more more skills or support multi-model anything the best going to be going to be a required step pharmacy so basically removes their the mental overhead for people to think so hard

I’m so I do know the numbers when I cannot share them because this is private information about sly are you cannot compare skills without multimodal and with multi models just those two different experiences so I think that the huge next year because now I have more devices for screen and we’ve got a show to use Google home order and some just it’s just where the industry is Lauren yeah it reminds me of some conversations of her dream about the revival of the of radio and it for myself I think you know Radio 3 intimate you know it’s already only says it appeals to that kind of introverted mindset and you know you’re listening to it you listen to Someone speaking are you coming home at level and having thoughts at the same time you so much like your in conversation with them over this is that one possible use case of The Voice interfaces it’s not the only one that this multimodal worry no way of you

things I sometimes write a different sound for me more like that YouTube way where you come the sitting and staring and tapping and it is a bit more passive and a bit more can of the immediate gratification model this is going to be yours on smashed because you have a screen in your car you do you have a screen on your TV and those kind of things that excite me the most right right but what are what are some of the major problems that you see her invoice right now I’m asleep people dropping off her when they’re there are too many to many turns too many decisions to make in it in a scale is one of them are there other limitations of the voice interfaces that you think are really pressing right now or maybe issues in in more and general with the industry thing is I am just the interface this is this is not a new shirts a specific of this interface driver bug it’s a feature we are some people this is what I’m saying you know

some people like it’s a bonus it’s all about the whole platform in an ecosystem evolving so the skills armour skills are mostly garbage that and and therefore must people don’t use them and therefore must people get frustrated with scales so we need to start thinking about the skills more serious than we need to start approaching damaz Building Products instead of building just landing pages or the word right I think that’s that’s the first one the second one is the discovery so even if you spend what’s a like a week or two or 2 months building your skill it still it still it’s still a gamble you cannot control Dad and that frustrates most companies and brands are looking to do something with Alexa because if you

if you tell them bad sorry guys but you cannot control how many issues are as you get your skill they will be is not very happy absolutely but it seems to me that we’re having the same in a realisations over voice girls as we’ve had over mobile skills in our mobile apps it’s not you know maybe back in the day I was like that I just build an app and get rich but then people very quickly realised you need this massive marketing budget behind it as well if it’s going to do well and very rarely do these are indeed individual developers to have a smash hair and make a fortune so why would it be different on a bicycle you know where it is made even harder because they’re in the year then there is not there’s no mobile app to just browse through not that many people do that anymore you know the mean that’s the way I like some words is that it gives you the rest when you have users already but it is your uterus and that she started going off but do you have

and most importantly you have zero reviews and you have your attention to and those kind of things that Drive new usage from that Alexa Discovery make any is Madonna’s I’m more and more so if you don’t have those things like that you’re not going to do good luck that’s the thing is on retention problem even if you sound like humans being the awesome interactive story if it has our users who just visited the first time in that never come back then there is also probably won’t you can’t get the value out of those users you can’t convert them then you know they’re not useful to anyway apart from Daniel vanity metrics as I’ve had 15000 20000 people download this once and never used it once in the night was it

so that you know that times come again see you again so she’s not quite so yeah that’s that also problem right that’s why many people keep on building really complex I would not take them facts about the advantages do simple things like that and it reminds me like those simple yes no experience as they remind me of my VR from when you gonna call call the bank and you get this iprs response or two to get to an operator press one to ask a question press to remind me I am we should have more conversation experiences and it’s real hard to build them so

There’s Gonna think all those 4 things I think are the core problems are both benches Amazon Google are dressing damn oppressively isopropyl Amazon is working on iPhone x features the ability that allows our matching users are Discovery and the place where we are on a on a search engine you know where we are search engines right now because you know really matter traffic it gets his depends largely on where it ranks on their on the search engine lets you want that you’re paying for ADS it’s a bit like that on our bicycles as wine if Amazon decides that yeah you’re still the one that we’re going to direct all the traffic to because it but I was there and that the intent and better than one of the rest in you get all the traffic and the others getting on and and and there’s not a huge amount of visibility on that either is a you’re the winner or you’re not

have to have some rules here right ill have to pass the rules of the game that you can use to ensure clients to ensure customers if you have the gumball machine where are you throw something out there and see what sticks it’s not available as a speaker system to throw one thing out there let alone keep doing it so I’m alright and what’s your prediction for 2019 I mean you say that multimodal is coming we’re going to see richa richa interactions imagine those at Richer interactions are going to help with the mlu side of things as well mean the more data that these platforms collect and the more there going to be able to respond to an individual needs but obviously with the increase privacy concerns as well so I seen at the 4 hours that you mentioned it going to be tackled in one way or another but what do you what do you think will be there that the big trends in in 2019 and what what can we look forward to

multi models that are big fans are another thing is that one more on speakers or speakers are coming from multiple vendors listening to me because ar111 week start for example which was Temple last year we like Amazon had as I remember like 70 or 75% of them or something like that and it was huge right that’s like almost 80 estate agents and now it’s different so if you just google who is it go to Google trans and if you were compared to topics Amazon echo and Google home actually there’s a couple days out in many countries Google who’s like beating Amazon 921 so that’s really really interesting ride on small speakers are on their mobile devices on smart speakers

text more sense to me from the actor system perspective like or answer Gmail has like to begin using her so you just dance people by Google speaker because it’s all done Google already has a huge market share if you if you’re from Chapel to take a look at Microsoft and those guys are they have 500 million Windows our devices over the world and they do have the corner by default on all those devices and Cortana using she’s growing light 50% Mansour mask which is also interesting writing then we will leave in a sort of like departed world of assistant are I’m not sure I’m not going to bed or which one is know when we will have all of them are some popularity yeah I think it’s going to be related a dead person in the Monopoly and someone beating the whole roast good competition

I’m feeling pretty things for the for the consumers and I also think that mean as a consumer I’m not going to want to speak to a 10 different interfaces you know lonely there a match Windows guy I don’t want to be a 10 different voice assistance Guy I’m sorry I’m at in at some point there’s going to be some layer on top that allows you to deal with one kind of persona that supposed to be nice for you that you can do you buy individual me talk to my Google assistant plus I talk to my Google assistant relaxer right why would I do that I just buy Google speaker the one thing that Amazon doesn’t have his eye is a mobile phone with all the other ones Samsung as well as they’ve all got the phone so I can see them just anything from that in terms of intent a real growth but yeah I’m not sure about that I’m using all of those those big tech voice assistance in the law

run giving them all my day time in you know if there are offering something something unique and then I think Sarah later if they want to capture everyone either they they expect everyone to be operating at 19 processing with with all of them simultaneously which I think is unrealistic or they’re going to need to start opening up and their data their services to to allow more than you know to connect to them ideally my ideal really would be to use some kind of the open source voice interface as my primary input method where I control all the date and I control what you know what what happens to my voice files and know what you know then integrate that with all the individual services like Google because I want to voice interact with my calendar Amazon because I want to order stuff that would be my that’ll be my preference anywhere by Jennifer million people by Shakka they care about privacy well maybe it’s like the people who signed up for Facebook yeah they they they don’t care until it’s too late and then and then

when you do find out how long do they really care for I mean yeah it’s a good question it’s amazing actually how little you can offer somebody basically for the entire the entire data storage another life and life on a desk so yeah I think there is I think that would be a a growing demand for privacy just because voices much richer much more personal I mean you choose what photos that you put on Facebook what they do with the after that is anyone’s guess but you know if you’ve got a microphone in every room in your house including your bedroom then you know people going to start thinking what’s of what is being recorded and is only going to take when you know one or two big data breaches which there is every month we hear about another one there was one the other day, it was it sooner or later there’s going to be a voice data breach and then people who go while these people that you know he’s coming he’s a really storing everything about us now we care for the next 10 minutes you know so I think it will definitely be an ongoing thing and I mean we’ve already learnt a lesson from social network

the mobile everything else with white Focus more on privacy at least in the corporate world and you know it if you want to if you want to tackle the Enterprise then it’s a must say when there’s money involved people care a lot more moving on then I wanted to ask to stay if you’ve got any any advice for 4 people in Tring though that the voice entrepreneur kind of space or in people considering working for advice first company for one of the better word and your advice for people who raps the king of launching a business in invoice 10 days maybe some of the lessons that you’ve learnt since you started

why you’re doing this in the first place because it seems to me that most people who got into this but they have this like fear of missing out on the other companies like exploding or a place at many newspapers write about it right maybe something really see this whole a candy game and the centre of the field are so excited they start working on things and when she takes the fan are they actually text to become really frustrated right and they just the who’s there bear energy and excitement about the film because they they didn’t have a clear reason in the first place so I think this is really important and and from the business stand for wild with God like so many people copying a product that

it’s it’s it’s really fun in early aren’t you have all those platforms to have a pixel by pixel similar interface I’ve noticed you as a couple of copycats in there probably glad to see that you perverted now so you know the doors open supposedly they picking up the user is there are fighting they are for those users and it’s like when you when you’re copying something you don’t realise that or something to your kind of copying right now it’s already like it’s already in the past right so you’re always want to be fine and I’m buying a stock that’s already or a shot at me now you’re like with this by now I missed the boat and Away

thinking deeply what they’re trying to build in the first place so I really like cloud by Peter Thiel who is a very famous capitalist who’s the person that studies bodies something of somewhere is the Notting of nowhere then I think this is a really good one and when you’re copying something it’s like you’re always one step behind so when you’re you’re actually start you start thinking about your competition with our thinking about your customer so those those kind of things I am I just come and do not enter the field because of this holiday because it’s actually going to be worth in the future so we are we are still like climbing up the hype cycle right and right things going to be

yeah if you don’t have a good answer for why you doing this song that’s good point so what what drives you for then what is it the your vision of the ultimate potential voice assistant what is it the keeps you going and now and got you into got to it got you into in the in the beginning and I know you said that you use or as outer space with a lot of potential about yeah what what is it the drive the Void for messaging app called telegram I know if you know this one is my favorite top 3 years are in 2015 that was around because it has no no synchronisation

well and desktop ponies like that you cannot there is a web interface but isn’t as clunky compared to the impact of telegram 105 just enough time to study but we both felt horribly with Messenger because it’s impact a bigger opportunity and I don’t think that’s actually took off in telegram at all I think that they can you cast Facebook I fell out for some use cases like lead Generation Facebook ads just because of the number of people on Facebook I think that’s the reason and the City of the time it’s going to be really interesting like 2 years ago I rode past and so I watch

movie in West Brom that’s a serious and they had this computer to you every time they needed something right person the guy had a tablet and she was gonna asking like show me this data or compare this data with that data show me the relations and felt so natural to me this whole interaction Mum has her voice interaction I’m so I was just really excited about building something here to support this is why I do believe this is the future of how we will interact with them with computers are at least meet term future so maybe in there in there like in the long-term we will have some fun your interfaces borrow voices the most natural interfaces the oldest the interface of all this is actually I think maybe it is the ultimate device is a neural interface would really work

are humans to to start communicating in a completely new and a natural way we have a lot to ask why and looking around I don’t see humans that you know adapting will changing the behaviours that quickly you know but I think voice when it works well would be completely friction lesson and initiative to everybody like the world over so in the game and for real belief in the interface itself orca good reasons and 11 soul definitely have persisted throughout your throat your journey invoice a minute isn’t enough work there for A41 lifetime at least so um yeah congratulations on the product I think makes a lot of sense in invokable in the plans you got for it what what will you be focusing my energies on specifically for the next 6 to 12 months and already given us a lot of details but in general that the approach for the next the area

are we don’t actually plan for that long and I can explain why so we did that time for the past year or so and Everytime We like me to plan for the next week for six months but horribly wrong I don’t believe in the term planning and I do believe in long-term Vision and I do believe in short-term a couple of months then pan The Wanderer it takes the wonder the wonder you’re planning for 4 year the longest text to wife and the hardest changes the chances are that the man is going to be irrelevant in the next few weeks time

turn thanks for trying to optimise for what our customers Italian as we’re trying to work customer feedback and we’re trying to be like to know more than anyone on the market and that’s a better thing the thing that you need to optimise for like or because you have to have to be friendship the signal from the noise right and then don’t know I see is that apart from is exciting drive to solving skills out there and developers are Ghost by cramping and building all those things that’s the noise but you have to have to find the signal there so that those kind of things that were thinking about setting priorities yard the short some things I would imagine them that it was amusing and we’ll just see how girls and sounds like a plan to move fantastic thank you very much where can people find out more about you online

I’m on I’m on Facebook when did with her what are social network you guys prefer I miss you want to reach out and have the questions on better to do that or email honestly because mine a Linkedin request on Facebook last night I am I can process all of them so but I do try to my email I try to keep inbox zero everyday so you have a brave enough to mention your email on the podcast you can just block them but I do think that if you open up to you if you open yourself to more or more opportunities or you’ll have a chance to discover those gems outermost opportunity to have a chat right you can find out about you book about just going to the website and woke up. Come and get her am just trying it out for herself will get a free 14th

and then after 14 days it will it run have one plan just professional it’s 99 4 months or 79 if build anyway and if you’re looking for more than 18 of 5 than you would like to talk to you but I still think very much for one more thing with a brand new community and community and our on was designed and not around the product I think it’s it’s becoming a commodity that people just start building those like our product name community thanks to promote themselves and you want to read you find that so we won’t you build a community that will own the whole category boys design it’s called boys designer centre product manager in Facebook I’m so I’ll drop a link in the podcast and you guys can just go request access or I cannot guarantee you that we were

review because we want you like in the high quality standards are but that that’s going to be the best place from the best people from the world I could do voice design and who who who product products in this face sunscreen something of a fantastic idea I wish you the best of luck and I look forward to speaking to you in there in the group

ok you just heard from bacillus shynkarenka CEO and co-founder of invocable and online tool that lets you prototype voice applications without coding haven’t used the product myself I can vouch for its quality and usefulness and I don’t need to tell you how important prototyping an idea as before building the real thing as they go and check out vocals free trial and see for yourself that’s all for today hope you enjoyed listening are you find all the show notes with links the resources mentioned the episode at voicetechpodcast.com you enjoyed this episode there’s many ways to support the show how you can tell one friend or colleague about this episode you can leave a review on iTunes at voicetechpodcast.com / iTunes or you can become a sponsor voicetechpodcast.com / donate to you of course even if you don’t answer I grateful to have you as a listener I’ll be back soon with another episode of it until then I’ll be your house, Robinson thank you for listening to the voice tech podcast

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